S15E03 The State of Hiring & Jobs in Elixir
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[00:00:09] Charles: Hi, everyone. I'm Charles Suggs, software developer at SmartLogic, and I'm your host for season 15, episode three. We're joined by Greg Medland, AKA The Elixir Fixer, Elixir-specific recruiter, and VP of sales at SR2 Socially Responsible Recruitment. Today, we're talking about the state of hiring and the jobs market in Elixir. Greg, welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:33] Greg: Thank you for having me, Charles. Really appreciate it.

[00:00:36] Charles: Yeah. This is a, this is a topic we've been wanting to talk about for a little bit now. It seems like there's some new things going on in the job market, new factors that haven't existed for a while. So this seems a little timely with the, the state of the stack.

[00:00:51] Greg: Yeah, I feel honored to be, uh, selected. Um, I always joke that I'm the number one Elixir recruiter in the US and, uh, without a lot of competition. But, yeah, I was pleased to come on, and I think a lot of the questions are things I get asked on a regular basis, whether it's at meetups or conferences or just in my day-to-day.

So good to have a resource, I think, for people to, to go to and hopefully get some indication from someone who's on kind of both sides of the coin.

[00:01:17] Charles: For sure. Yeah, it seems like the overall market right now is maybe slow, like hiring rates are low, but also, people aren't really moving around. There are some reports that the demand for software developers is growing and projected to do that, but it-- what are you seeing in your role kind of in both worlds there?

[00:01:37] Greg: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's been, it's been a strange couple of years. I think a lot of the sentiment out there was that things are, are really bad. And I, I would say they're weirder. They're more weird than they are bad. And it's, it's just a bit of a change of what we've been used to. So yeah, it's quite a unusual time, I would say, where I think it's important for people to kind of learn the market a little bit as they're going, because things aren't following a normal trajectory as they have done in, in previous years, I think.

Um, it's definitely been a bit of a shakeup.

[00:02:12] Charles: What do you think is different about that trajectory today compared to what people might be used to?

[00:02:17] Greg: Yeah. So I think, coming into kind of twenty twenty, you know, early twen- early twenty twenties, twenty twenty-one, twenty twenty-two, there was just a, a-- Demand was just growing, you know, year on year, more bodies. We need more people in software engineering and, you know, a lot of people joined the industry who perhaps haven't been in it before, which, you know, is great.

And I think there was a, um, a stea-steady increase of supply, and supply just couldn't keep up with demand fast enough, in terms of a volume of hiring software engineers. And I think post 2021, '22, where there was obviously a lot of stimulus in the, the economic market and funding was, was, was fairly easy to come by naturally in the US, that goes to tech a lot of the time, and that's kind of where it went.

So it was a crazy couple of years, demand was just so disproportionate to supply at that point, that everyone was getting pay bumps constantly, everyone was getting promotions constantly, and if they weren't, there was four or five other suitors who will happily give them what they want.

Um, so it was definitely a candidate-led market, you know, across the board, and that didn't discriminate between seniors, principals, juniors. people were using me to find, you know, junior engineers because they couldn't get them. And you know it's competitive when people, you know, are fighting for

people in their first job. And I think then post that, I think there was a rebalancing with the market and companies that had overhired, you know, had to, to readdress that and there was quite a lot of instability. Money, interest rates came up, money was harder to come by, and every kind of dollar had to go further .

So that left, you know, quite a, a strange situation for people. And then since then there's been this kind of we're trying to get back to an equilibrium that makes some sort, some form of sense and, yeah, I think we're getting there.

[00:04:05] Charles: you mentioned the US a couple of times. Do you work with placing people in, with companies outside the US, or is your experience largely just US-based?

[00:04:14] Greg: I actually previously recruited in Europe and spent a few years there before coming over to the US. Since Then, all of my clients have been US-based. My engineers have been based predominantly in the US, but I have placed also quite a few folks from Latin America, Canada, Europe as well.

On the candidate side, like quite global, I would say. The client perspective has been very US-focused. So yeah, my view is a little more focused, I would say, on the micro version of, of the US as opposed to worldwide.

[00:04:47] Charles: the trends you've discussed so far, have you seen that kind of play out in those other markets, or do you not have as much exposure to that in Europe, Canada, Central South America?

[00:04:57] Greg: We do, yeah. So, to, to give a bit of background, so I kind of head up on the, the US side of the business, and kind of founded that, and then, the company is predominantly UK and European-based. So we've certainly seen across the board the same trends following suit everywhere. I think the US is, given the economy relies heavily on tech, you know, as its kind of primary export and that's the, the growth part, it's potentially been a, a heavier hit on the US, um, than, than in, in Europe somewhat.

But it's, it's, it's a global, global situation. 

[00:05:30] Charles: Mm, mm-hmm. So, so you mentioned about kind of getting back to maybe a little bit more of an equilibrium on the supply-demand equation here. There've been some significant layoffs at some of the bigger tech companies in the US, really kind of since the pandemic, I guess. And I'm curious how you interpret those layoffs in the broader scheme of all of this.

[00:05:54] Greg: Yeah. Yeah. It's quite shocking, isn't it? 'Cause I think everyone comes out of, into the workforce and thinks, "Oh, if I join a, a household name, uh, you know, uh, a top 100 company, my job's safe forever." And I think that's been a bit of a shock to the system for, for a lot of people in readjusting that.

And, you know, some of the smaller companies are, you're closer to your staff, and there's more, more stability actually there. So yeah, I mean, that's happened. I think that's been, again, I think they've just followed the trend of the economy over the last, last few years for the most part.

This is just personal opinion, but I feel that some of the decisions are kind of, they're attributing to AI, and probably it's because of over-hiring or just, you know, looking after the, the balance sheet, to be honest, to be, to, to be quite frank. And I think, yeah, it's certainly shaken up the market.

But what I see in Elixir is that, for the most part, there's a lot of the market doesn't necessarily want to be a, a FAANG company. So I, I think we've been a little less affected by that as a result.

[00:07:00] Charles: Yeah, I remember seeing some reports maybe a couple years ago that some of this was due to talent hoarding to keep people away from competitors and that maybe their calculus changed. Maybe it was somewhat economically driven. But yeah, that's a good point that for the most part, Elixir companies are not the FAANGs

the FANGs, uh, so that does somewhat insulate us. How much do you think AI is influencing these layoffs? You know, you mentioned that in some cases that might just be an excuse is maybe kind of your take, if I am quoting you correctly. But yeah, how, how much do you think that is influencing it?

[00:07:37] Greg: I th- I, I think it's definitely playing a part, and I think right now it's not-- The way I see it is it's not a, a people eliminator, it's a productivity multiplier, is kind of my take. So naturally with that, I think there's a tendency to think that we can do more with less people. So I think that's probably in the thoughts of, you know, C-suite, a, a lot of companies and particularly at enterprise level that, "Hey, you know, we previously would need, you know, a team of six to do what now a team of three can do."

And, you know, that's gonna have, have an impact, and if you scale that up to the, the big organizations, that results in, it does result in quite a lot of cuts. But from conversations I have, it doesn't seem to be the driving force. It's fanning the flames, I think. And it's probably made the cuts a little deeper in the last couple of years.

But I think, you know, take out the advancements in AI in the last few years, I think there would've been significant cuts regardless. Again, purely I'm not an economist, and I did study at university, but I, I do attribute a lot of it down to how, how the economies ha- has gone. It's kind of cyclical.

But I think AI has definitely exacerbated things.

[00:08:56] Charles: So, you know, developers come in all stripes, all kinds of skill levels, all kinds of different combinations of bits of skill to, to make up the whole. Are you seeing differences in terms of how junior developers or more senior developers or someone who has kind of like a broad but shallow skill set vs. someone who has kind of a narrow but really deep skill set?

You know, are these different kinds of skill sets, we'll say, and experience levels being affected differently in what you're seeing?

[00:09:29] Greg: Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I do. I think, you know, if I look at 2020, 2021, at that point it's like, how many years of Elixir does someone have ? And more recently I've had numerous requests where people are like, "Can you find me the people who contributed to this open source package?" Which is like super specific, right?

And it's like, we've got a specific use case and maybe we're in audio, maybe we're in video, and we want someone who's just knows that space within Elixir super well. Unicorn searchers, as I call them. That's been a, a bit of a trend. I think, domain knowledge has become like higher priority.

I think that's just, uh, because, uh, employers have a bit more choice. They want to , you know, it might be a healthcare company wants someone who's worked with HIPAA before or compliancy, and they can afford to be a little bit more picky or at least they feel that they can. Whereas back in 2021, it's like you've got a couple years of professional, you know, Elixir experience, you got the job if you want it.

You know it was, it was, it-- That's, that's how it was because then they didn't know when they were gonna see another Elixir developer again. And I think that's, that's been a big thing. So I think folks have had to lean in. I think the temptation when things get tough is to like become a jack of all trades.

Like, "Oh, I can do that. I can do this," you know? When really, what do you really excel at and what have you done really well in your past? What do you enjoy? What are you passionate about? If you lean further into that, I think, yes, you're limiting the amount of roles you could potentially apply for, but you're maximizing the chances of you landing them if you're steering towards that .

And that's something, something else that I've kind of had to rebalance myself.

[00:11:09] Charles: That sounds a little bit like advice sometimes given to new business folks who are trying to find their way is to niche down, to concentrate your business on a small niche of what you do really well instead of trying to do too many things. 

[00:11:24] Greg: Yeah. it's what I did is kind of lean on, my business model. You know, a lot of recruitment agencies will, you know, they wanna work on everything and get as much business as they can and say they can deliver on everything. And really I, you know, I did the opposite and kind of leaned into how I can become really good and the go-to person for Elixir.

And that's, you know, manageable and it's the same thing, I think, from a job perspective. Like, yeah, you want to be a desirable product in the market, not to talk about it too crudely, but to do that, you've got to differentiate yourself and know your limitations and know where you're strong.

[00:11:59] Charles: So how, how about when it comes to, you know, market share? Elixir is, of course, kind of a, in a way, a more niche language. There's-- It's not as widely used as, say, Python or, or JavaScript. But how, how do you see that affecting the, the job market, Elixir's market share?

[00:12:19] Greg: Yeah, I think adoption's been a, a common question over the last two years because obviously the, the whole engineering market has contracted slightly and, you know, Elixir wasn't immune to that. However, I feel like where Elixir has been used for the right reasons, there's been quite a lot of growth.

And I have seen, I think overall, although the whole market has shrunk, I do think that Elixir has a larger amount of the pie now, and adoption has steadily increased. You can definitely argue there's less Eli- less quantity of Elixir jobs than there has been in '21, '22. But I think if you take that into consideration of the wider labor market and the wider software engineering market, Elixir has gained traction.

And we talked about obviously the threats of AI, but I think there's quite a lot of opportunity in, in AI too when it comes to Elixir. I've had, you know, numerous instances in the past six months where both enterprise clients and startups are using Elixir specifically for its concurrency to be the kind of infrastructure layer behind AI systems.

So there's definitely like a lot of optimism in it, and I think, I'm still kind of seeing that growth. I'm still seeing new companies adopting, uh, uh, a lot of companies migrating to Elixir, and then you always get kind of startups coming through with Elixir because it's, you know, so great for, for early-stage companies.

So on the, the adoption front, I'm, I'm feeling fairly bullish, and I think as, as we get to an equilibrium, that'll be clearer for everyone on the, you know, job seeker side. 

[00:13:53] Charles: So it sounds like in a way, a, a suggestion that being familiar with concurrency and perhaps distributed, uh, systems in Elixir would be a really good thing to do for making yourself more attractive to someone looking to hire.

[00:14:10] Greg: Yeah. I mean definitely. You wanna lean into those areas that are, are growing and where the VC money is going to, right? And I think obviously AI, everyone knows AI is, is one of them and, or the main one. So I think for, for people who are curious, yeah, I would look at how does, how does the BEAM fit into that ?

How does my experience fit into that ? Where do I need to improve so that if more and more of these opportunities arise, which I fully expect them to, am I well set up to get one of those positions, if that's what you're interested in? Yeah.

[00:14:41] Charles: And that, you know, that's a good segue. , I didn't ask earlier in the, in the episode, what's kinda your Elixir journey? How did you, how did you come to this? What-- How did you get into the recruitment world?

[00:14:53] Greg: Yeah. So I, as you can tell from the accent, not US born and raised. I, uh, I was from, uh, Yorkshire in the UK and, did a degree in economics. Loved it, But, um, didn't kinda see myself going down, you know, a traditional kind of corporate path and by chance went along for an interview for a recruiting role.

You know, it kind of was challenging and kind of had a lot of elements in, in, in the customer-facing kind of nature that I was interested in. And, uh, it just kinda happened. You know, we have a joke in recruitment, no one grows up wanting to be a recruiter. You just kind of fall into it. And then spent, spent about three, three and a half years back in, uh, in, in Europe, recruiting there.

And I'd, I'd covered quite a bit of object-oriented languages and then found a bit of a niche in, in Scala, actually back in Europe. And I think I then got the opportunity to move over to the US with a UK business, and, at that point, wanted to hone in more because the US seemed absolutely vast to me, and the market was so much bigger than Europe.

Like, I was used to doing Belgium and the Netherlands, where there's, you could get across two countries in a day and, you know, you can't, you can't drive a- across Texas in a day now. So, I, yeah, I was like, "I've gotta, I've gotta break this down a bit." And I, I, I basically set out and was like, "Right." I was hearing a lot from my network in terms of, like, functional programming and, and, and, and excitement and interest there, and I was like, "Okay, so what are the main functional programming languages?"

Tried out basically, like, test run and saw where, where was the demand. And at that point, I kind of rode the wave of Elixir. There was this massive asymmetric in- information in the market whereby clients did not know where, where on Earth to find Elixir people, and Elixir people didn't know where the hell on Earth to find, you know, the jobs.

So I was like, "Well, this is perfect. This is where I can add some value." And it just kind of snowballed and really liked the community, you know, meeting people face-to-face. One of my best friends here in Austin, , runs the, the Elixir meets up here. Known him for, for years and going to the conferences, people are very happy to help.

And obviously in recruitment, you need friends of friends, and you need referrals, and you need-- And that's how a lot of my business is done. And Elixir folks seem to wanna help each other quite a bit. So that, that was a bit of a, that fanned the flames, and then Yeah, six years, six years later, um, and, you know, call myself Elixir Fixer on, on, on, uh, X.

[00:17:25] Charles: Cool. See, you talked a little bit about, people finding, finding jobs and, and not knowing where to look to find people that are hiring and not knowing where to look to find hirees. About what time period was that? Was, was there much available at that point in terms of Elixir job boards online, or 

what was that space like?

[00:17:45] Greg: Oh, it was, it was pretty empty. I had to use like a tool that would kind of strip the internet for companies posting. I probably would have spun it up with with Claude Pretty quickly, if it was around then. But it would, it would basically, uh, yeah, show me the companies that are advertising for that, and for Elixir mentioned in there basically.

And then it was just a process of outreach and then building up my network from there. And a lot of the good, the good candidates I spoke to, you know, back then were, I'd speak to one person, they'd introduce me to three more, and it would kind of snowball, and then they'd be working at three different companies, so I knew three different companies use Elixir and just kind of mapped it out organically.

And I think it's important to note, and I don't think a lot of people are aware of this, or maybe they are, but a lot of hiring goes on not on LinkedIn and not on job boards. And,



[00:18:31] Greg: yeah, I tried to set up-- So I set up like a, a Slack group six years ago. It's, I think it's got over 1,000 members now, uh, channel in the main Elixir Slack, where I just post kind of remote US jobs.

I have my Twitter channel where, or X channel where I post my roles and LinkedIn I, I, I fairly often post and that kind of shares it organically and gets to the right people, hopefully , eventually. So yeah, you've got to be a bit creative in, in Elixir to find, to, to, to find those folks when you need them.

[00:19:00] Charles: have you noticed any significant changes in hiring practices or in the volume or quality of candidates?

[00:19:09] Greg: it sounds crazy for a recruiter to say this, but I never post my jobs on, on like LinkedIn as a job because there's a Click Apply button, and I could show you where I've posted previously, and I can search Elixir in the applicants, and one out of every 120 will have Elixir mentioned in their profile, right?

And it's a pure Elixir role looking for three or four years experience with Elixir, for example. So, , that's changed. I can't do that anymore because my inbox just becomes unmanageable, and then people will start, start to hate me because I don't get back to them quick enough, you know, which is a problem.

So I think more so than now, I think because, I mean, because of like, you know, even like fake employees and all that kind of thing, like people trust is a big thing in hiring, right? A lot more of the market has gone kind of off market, if you like, where people are going through networks or coming to someone like me if they know me, and hiring that way as opposed to putting out an advert and seeing what comes back because you just don't know and you're gonna be, you know, overloaded with inbound.

And, you know, a lot of companies don't have a dedicated internal recruitment team and so, like, if you're a CTO of a growing startup, do you want a hundred resumes in your inbox? And can you really have the time to go through them properly and actually find the people who are relevant in there?

so that's been a, a bit of a switch. I think in terms of like practices and process, I would say things have got slower. Like, you had to move really quickly in '21, '22, to find the right, right people. I think some companies I'm hearing like, crazy lengths of time between first interview and final interview.

Um, the processes themselves, I think have remained largely the same. What I typically see is a first round screen with a direct hiring manager, second round some form of technical, whether that's take home, live coding or, an in-depth kind of project that you kind of walk through. Followed by typically a panel round with like a few more stakeholders in the business and then finishing up with a, a CEO or back to the hiring manager, depending on the business to kind of round things out.

so process-wise, no. I do think one thing of note is that I do have to ask people now when I'm qualifying them and when I'm taking a new job requirement from a company is like, "What is your stance on AI tools?" Like, that, that I have to ask. And then that's a big thing. Like, I've had, you know, placements not work out because during the interview process, the manager and the engineer had completely different views on it.

You know, some people like let AI run wild and, you know, others are like, "Ugh, I don't trust it at all." And there's a, there's a spectrum. So that's a new one for me that, that's only had to join my qualification sheet, if you like, in the last couple of years.

[00:21:44] Charles: Is there much imbalance between hirers and hirees in terms of that stance on AI tooling?

[00:21:52] Greg: I think it's a fine balance, but I think like C-suite and, and a lot of, you know, management If someone's completely hesitant to use kind of AI tools , I'd typically say that's like a, you know, that's probably a deal breaker. I think, you know, they, they want to see that people are experimenting or at least trying to work with, with these tools.

It might not be fit for every job, but you want to be as productive as possible, and they want their engineering organization to be as productive as possible. So I think this, that can be seen as, as, as a bit of a red flag. but then I think from an engineering standpoint, some people just aren't comfortable, like, going into an environment where the process is completely different to what they know, and they feel like they're taking risks with the code, uh, that they shouldn't do.

So it's just alignment, you know. It's, knowing what your view is and sticking with it almost and being quite upfront about it and make sure that you're happy with it, because at the end of the day, during an interview process, if you're not completely transparent and honest, it's gonna come unstuck in a few months, you know, and you- it's gonna be a worse situation for

everyone. 

[00:22:53] Charles: mm-hmm. Yeah. Honesty is always a good policy.

[00:22:56] Greg: Mm.

[00:22:57] Charles: I wanna dig in more to the-- how AI has been kind of disrupting the hiring process with fake candidates, and fake job postings even. it sounds like in a way, maybe the, the solution right now is more personal contacts. Of course, working with a recruiter who is verifying that there's humans and actually a, a legit job offer, um, or job posting. But how, how else are people dealing with this? I know I've heard from some hiring managers how it's just like a slog, and some companies have maybe even switched to only interviewing in person because they're guaranteed to get a real person.

[00:23:41] Greg: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And who knows for how long that will be with pretty lifelike robots. Um, but, um, yeah, I think, in terms of a workaround, like right now, and, outside of going through your network and going through people you trust, there really isn't a, a solid way of verifying.

I mean, you know, there's always steps you can do. If someone's applied for a role and they look great, you know, you can always ask from a hiring manager perspective for references. It's still a pretty normal thing. I know it sounds a bit dated these days, but I, I think references are very important and, and carry a lot of weight.

And I think from a candidate's perspective, I think it's difficult because, you know, a lot of companies, you get stealth startups, you get like companies who don't have a great LinkedIn presence or, you know, branding for whatever reason. It could be they're totally legitimate. But, yeah, I, I think in Elixir we've been lucky because, you know, I think if you're a fake candidate trying to get interviews, you're probably not gonna put Elixir on your resume because you're probably going to ca-cast a wide net and try and catch, you know, you might put Java or something that's, you know, used by everyone.

So I actually don't see a ton of fake profiles in the community, but as soon as you go onto like, you know, job boards and whatever else, yes, you're gonna get it. And there really isn't a way around it that doesn't cost a significant amount of time, you know? And I think that's why, like, I've seen a demand for my services go up is because I can be a, a first wall of that and very quickly identify because it's my job every day to know who's good and who's, who's legitimate.

And same on the kind of the flip side of it really. I know which clients are legitimate , but, um, it seems less of a problem, I think, in our little world. 

[00:25:28] Charles: I don't mean this to sound reductive. Do you think that in a way your role, or part of it, is taking the place of some of the AI resume vetting tools that some large companies use? 

Cause I've, I've heard this is a problem of just trying to get through the AI machine so that a human will even see Yeah. Yeah. 

Or is this part of what you do, is work with candidates to edit the resume so it's more likely to get through some of these filters or...

[00:25:55] Greg: So I don't have to worry about that. I mean, every candidate I submit to a client is usually through a Slack channel or an email, and it's, it's handpicked. There's detailed notes in there. So I, I'm never really worrying about optimizing for, for online. But if someone always asks me to how can I improve my resume, I'll give them kind of tips.

But from my understanding and from what people are saying, there's no tips that are gonna work, you know, all the time. It sounds as though each model will reject you for different reasons, and it is frustrating because I speak to people often who are-- I'm looking at it as a human going, "Oh, they'd be great for that role."

Like, um, I, I know the role, I know the company, and I'm like, "Yeah, they're," you know, uh, uh, "They'd be super not taught," and they never get a response. And I'm like, they need a human there almost just saying, "Tap, tap, you should have a, have a conversation with this person because they actually look really good."

[00:26:48] Charles: So cover letters,

[00:26:51] Greg: Mm.

[00:26:52] Charles: are they old school, not worth it? Are they important? Does it really just depend?

[00:26:58] Greg: I, I, I, I mean, I love a cover letter 'cause I essentially will write one up for a candidate from my perspective after qualifying them for a role. And, you know, it's so easy with like- You know, GPT or, or whatever you use to spin up a cover letter, you know, for your resume, for your, the job description in there.

That rarely hits the right notes because I think If you're being hired, it's a human thing. It's not something that, AI is gonna be able to kind of highlight or replicate. I think a good cover letter where you're showing that you've looked into the business, um, maybe you've had a look at some of the engineers on LinkedIn and they look like people who've had a similar trajectory to you or similar background, and you can draw reference to those.

There's levels to it, and I think, if someone genuinely sits down and writes a cover letter, I think it boosts your chances. Like, yeah, 100%. and, um, it's needed 'cause a resume, just like a, a job description never tells the full story of what that job is, a resume won't either because when you're writing a job description, you're writing it you know to be appealing to be you know you're trying to put in there like the basic requirements but you're trying not to make it too much you know rule too many people out because naturally there's always flexibility in there but it doesn't tell you necessarily where the flexibility is, it doesn't tell you what the real technical problem is, or it might be a people problem. It might be a product problem that you're going in to solve. So, there's a lot of nuance behind it. so yeah, I would steer away from kind of AI-generated cover letters because I think they will fall by the wayside and it will be quite obvious but it always helps to put in a bit more work and kind of, you know, if you're really passionate about an opportunity, showcase it. You know, tell them why you are. 

won't either because when you're writing a job description, you're writing it to s- you know, to be appealing, to be, you know, you're trying to put in there, like, the basic requirements, but you're trying not to make it too much, you know, rule too many people out because there naturally is always flexibility in there, but it doesn't tell you necessarily where the flexibility is.

It doesn't tell you what the real technical problem is, or it might be a people problem, or it might be a product problem and, you know, that you're going in to solve. So there's a lot of nuance behind it. So yeah, I, I would steer away from kind of AI-generated cover letters because I think they will fall by the wayside and, and, and, and, and it would be quite obvious.

But it always helps to put in a bit more work and kind of, you know, if you're really passionate about an opportunity, showcase it. Te- you know, tell them why you are. 

[00:28:49] Charles: Yeah, use it to elaborate on, you know, what, what's important to focus on in your resume or why you're particularly suited for the role. Why you, not just the skills you have,

[00:29:01] Greg: Exactly. Exactly. It's sales at the end of the day, you know? It's, it's selling yourself and what you've done and what you, you think you're kind of capable to do. And that might even mean calling out deficiencies in your profile compared to the job description, but saying, "Well, look, I've

You know, it might be like, "I've never worked with this framework, but I actually went into my last job and I, this was a new framework to me then and I picked it up in three months, and my manager said this about me," you know? So there's always a way to combat it, and I think, again, the human element and the authenticity element goes a long way.

[00:29:31] Charles: For sure. For sure. What other things do you think people should do to really kinda stand out in the hiring pool?

[00:29:39] Greg: Hmm. That's a really good question, obviously one I get a lot. So I think everyone wants to stand out, and I think- The only way that everyone can stand out is if everyone leans into what makes them them in a way and what makes them... Everyone's had a different career journey, everyone's had a different process that's gotten to this point, and everyone has different strengths.

And I think there's a lot to be said for just knowing what, what you're good at, knowing what you're not good at , and being very clear about that and projecting what you want. Don't try and be a one-size-fits-all. Like, don't try and make your resume appealing to the masses . I'm coming back to that same point I raised earlier. 

[00:30:17] Charles: Mm-hmm. Niche 

[00:30:19] Greg: I don't wanna re-re-repeat myself too much. Having said that, like, people want tangibles, right? People want, like, "What can I go and do this evening that's gonna increase my chances?" And I think there are definitely things, like, I think, like, you know, having an open source presence is really important. I think that's, that's a really good thing.

It's not, you know, possible for everyone. I, I completely understand that. And as a kid who, you know, hated homework, I wouldn't want to go home and do more work on my own time. But I know that people are also very passionate about it. So again, if you have an area of, of work that you're really excited about, or maybe you have an area of your personal life that you're really excited about, say you're a musician, you know, look into kind of, Elixir and what's going on in, in, you know, audio or and what packages are available, and if you could improve them or, or help maintain them.

And in doing that, not only are you having something to talk about during interviews and on your profile alongside your own work, you'll also meet other people with, with similar passions, and guess what? They might be a CTO or an engineering manager at one of the companies you'd love to work at in, in, in an area you're really interested in.

So it's-- there's no shortcuts there. That's telling people to do a lot of hard work on their own time. Um, but it, but it works, and it resonates, and, uh, it hits the right marks. Um, I think aside from that, I think, um, the, the, the, the, the networking element, like, I think there was a period where everything was easy to get, you know, jobs.

You could just click on LinkedIn and apply, and you were right there, and, you know, the demand was enough to take you through. I think invest in relationships, invest in people, your old managers, your old colleagues. Keep in touch with them because you don't know where they're gonna end up, and you might wanna join them at some point again, and having an internal advocate's gonna be a massive help, you know, in, in, in that process.

Go back through your old connections, reach out, make friends with them, find out what they're doing. I think networking, and it, it seems crazy it's 2026, and I'm still saying, you know, to have these human connections, but it pays off. Like, it really does. And I, I know, I know people who've followed a mentor for years, and it's, it's, uh, fast-tracked their career, you know, a ton, and they've, you know, 3x-ed themselves 'cause they've, they've always just gone with them and, and, and kind of piggybacked on, on the journey and then, you know, someday hopefully they'll do the same for someone else.

But that only happens if you, if you put a bit of investment into the people you're around. So that's A big part of it, and I know that's-- it's also not possible for a lot of people to get to conferences, get to your local meetups. Like, I know there's-- America is huge, and I live in Austin, so I'm quite lucky because I can-- it's t- ten, five minutes in a, in a Waymo.

To meet up with other people. But getting that face timing and, and getting in front of people and hearing what other people are doing often leads to something. It might not be immediate. These are all, like, slower gains, but I think it will pay off in the long run.

[00:33:07] Charles: At the, at the risk of Putting words in your mouth. Uh, so definitely say if I've got this wrong, but it almost sounds like you're saying that in a world where artificial intelligence is becoming more prevalent, the importance of human connection is becoming more important or is just as important.

[00:33:28] Greg: There's our tagline. Yeah, that can be a post. Yeah, I think that's it. That's, uh, that's, that's exactly what I would say. I think I see it firsthand in that managers come to me or companies come to me b- because they want someone having that personal connection. They wanna protect their brand as well. They wanna make sure, like, candidates applying are having a good experience when they're, when they're trying to work there.

And I think, y-yes, I think that it just carries so much weight, and in a world where anyone can tailor their resume and can, you know, inflate the number of years' experience or even pick up a new framework fairly easily with the, the new tools. You've got to stand out. You're no longer, you know, a, a, a tool user.

You've got to be a, a tool builder almost and kind of and, and, and a, and a multiplier. I don't want to use too many buzzwords, but, I think that's, that's what I'm saying. And I think those people who I've seen who, who've got those, like, strong human connections are the ones who are finding it much easier now, as opposed to cold applying on LinkedIn, which I, I just think is almost redundant at this point.

[00:34:35] Charles: What about highlighting soft skills or non-technical aspects of you that may

[00:34:44] Greg: Oh, yeah.

[00:34:45] Charles: indirectly contribute to your ability to work, be a good team member? 

[00:34:49] Greg: I talked earlier about people, like, changing careers, which I actually think is a really good thing, and people have come into software engineering, and maybe they were a teacher and, you know, they, they, they get into an ed tech role. Like, that's, that's awesome.

You were a user. Like, you were, you know, you were a consumer of, of that kind of a product and gives you a whole new perspective on things. And I actually did wanna mention this because I think one of the most common requests in the last year or year and a half, or the most common reasons that candidates haven't received offers for interviews has not been they don't know Elixir well enough or they've never used LiveView.

It's been Could they sit in a room with a customer and create a solution like there and then? I had one candidate, I remember that how when I went to an interview and they asked him about his kind of like product instincts and how was he customer-facing. I think he'd worked on a, um, a trucking or logistics application, and they were having some problem with the mobile app.

And he went and sat on an overnight shift with someone driving the truck and saw how it was being used, saw where the problems were. And, you know, obviously it's, it's a great anecdote. It's a great story. Like, it makes problem-solving real, and I think software engineers are problem-solvers.

And I think being able to, you know, churning out lines of code is getting faster and faster. It's no longer a advantage to say, "I can write X lines of code," and, you know, it all works great because so can a lot of people. But what a lot of people can't do is take a problem, figure out a, a technically sound solution, implement it, you know, take the feedback, adjust it, you know.

Uh, and I think software engineers and product managers are almost blending a little bit and, and I think there's-- that's been probably the biggest trend I've seen in the last year and a half is, is, is been companies looking for that instinct and looking for experience or, anecdotes like the one I shared in the process that they can be like, "Yeah, they get it."

[00:36:50] Charles: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sounds a little bit... I mean, it shouldn't be, but sounds a little bit like thinking out of the box to a degree. Like the box is my ticket, 

[00:37:00] Greg: Yeah.

[00:37:01] Charles: the requirements I got from the client, um, and what I-- and maybe the small decisions that I end up having to make as I implement this that weren't made ahead of time.

[00:37:10] Greg: Yeah.

[00:37:11] Charles: But as technologists, if what we build isn't used or isn't useful, then we've just wasted our time and someone's money.

[00:37:18] Greg: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. You, you know, there's nothing wrong with, with taking tickets, but it's the-- that's not what's gonna get you hired, I don't think, in this day and age, or, or it's gonna make you less, you know, it's, those solutions. Which is why I think at the moment, like there's a ton of demand at the staff principal end of the market, and, you know, those folks are getting three, four offers.

And junior, kind of more mid-level, early, earlier career people who perhaps have been in those roles where they are taking more tickets and having less say, that's obviously more difficult for them to then showcase in the, in the future interviews. So I don't know what that means for the, for the future.

It's obviously not a good situation because they're never gonna get that experience if someone doesn't give it to them. That's been a kind of worrying trend, I think, , 'cause it seems Like there- 

[00:38:08] Charles: have to go and have those pet projects on the

side Yeah. 

they're doing their own kind of user studies, so to speak, and, and then developing something specifically for that.

[00:38:20] Greg: Yeah, there you go. That's, that's, that's a good solution, right? And that's, you know, and it's not something everyone wants to do or, you know, the last thing you wanna do when you're stressed and you're job searching is to go away and do something for free. Like, I totally get that, and I, I empathize with that completely.

But that's kind of the reality unless, unless maybe you know someone, right, and you've, and you've networked with someone or you've met someone at a conference or you've met someone on Meetup, and they're happy to give you a, uh, an internship or, or, or, or some kind of some work to kind of get going and maybe something contract-based, and you can kind of overachieve within that.

Um, but I think it's, yeah, you've gotta be... It's tough. It's a tough market, I think, for, for juniors and mid-levels, and there's no point pretending it isn't.

[00:39:05] Charles: Know how to ask and understand the why

[00:39:08] Greg: Mm. Yeah. 

Yeah,

[00:39:10] Charles: And even if you're not talking with the client or whomever it is you're working for, the end user, if you can understand the why and you can articulate the why, perhaps that's still a little-- getting a little bit of that indirectly.

[00:39:24] Greg: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Charles: what should people stop doing?

[00:39:28] Greg: well, people should alw-always return my calls, um, um, uh, but I think, hmm, yeah, that is a really good question, really.

We have a saying, right? What got you there-- What got you here won't get you there. So your traditional trajectory, you know, you're seeing, again, we can relay this back to a few things we discussed. So like the, you know, FAANG companies, enterprise companies laying off loads of people.

Traditionally, they would be safe bets for a number of years, where you could kind of, you know, hunker down and, and clock in and, do exciting work, I'm sure. But, you know, you knew that you'd probably be there for a few years, and I think that's kind of flipped on its head again.

And again, for those companies, you know, you're, you're a bit more of a number, whereas maybe look at some of the smaller companies. Maybe look at someone who's local to you, where you can have an outsized impact, you know, and develop really good relationships with not only your engineering team but maybe the wider business, maybe the, you know, marketing product, whatever it might be, and kind of, that will help you in terms of a stability standpoint.

and I think as well- I kind of covered it already and, and mentioned it, but trying to be everyone's cup of tea. Like, you don't need to be everyone's cup of tea. You've gotta be, your own cup of tea. It's kind of going for what you want and what you wanna attract. Like, again, like I wouldn't-- I would advocate against trying to apply for everything and, you know, it's obviously tempting 'cause the more shots I take, but I think what you're gonna do then is you're gonna burn out, and you're gonna get disillusioned, and by the time you get to the opportunity that you really want, you know, you, you, you're struggling in the interview because you're downcast about your, your suitability.

So I think people need to come into the market pre-prepared with a bit of a vision of what they want. Like I, I always like that when I get on a call with someone, and they can tell me what they... maybe what they don't wanna do and what they do wanna do, and, uh, that really helps me to, to know, to get to know them and, and what, and what's gonna be a good fit, , as opposed to, "Oh, if it's Elixir, yeah, throw me in there."

You know, I, I, I, that's not helpful for someone who only recruits in Elixir. All my clients do Elixir, and I'm like, "No, I wanna, I wanna hone in, and I wanna sell you really well because I wanna get impassioned by your fit for them." And, that's one, one thing. I think traditionally people would wait quite a long time before nurturing their connections and nurturing their outlook on looking for jobs, and I think one thing the last few years have shown is you kinda gotta keep an eye on the market because you don't know what's gonna, gonna happen at any company.

And it can be quite sudden, and, you know, there's that saying in investing, right? "Time in the market over timing in the market," and that's, there's never a truer word said when it comes to, you know, looking for a job. And the, the chances of-- I always say to people, the chances of you coming to me, say you've just had a, a layoff on a Friday, we speak on a Monday, the chances of me having a really, really good opportunity for you and, like, hits your criteria, you know, and, and is gonna be really interesting and a good team fit, chances are quite slim.

But if we've been chatting from the last 12 months, and I've been letting you know what's going on in the market, for example, this is quite selfish self-promotion, but, um- You know, it gives me that chance to then I can let you know when something good comes up. And it's the same from a client perspective.

Clients are, are doing it. You know, clients keep an eye on the market or should be keeping an eye on the market constantly to take advantage of when the right person is. Because on the flip side, if they're posting a role that's super specific, a bit of a unicorn, there's probably four or five people in their geography that could, could do the role, the chances of them being available right at that time are, are also pretty slim.

So, like, they need to have an open door. So I think people need to be... what they need to stop doing is being a bit reactive to their careers and, and the job search and try and be a bit more proactive. So what can I be doing in my current role that's gonna set me up well? Who can I be networking with and spending time with and speaking to?

What conference is gonna be attending whilst I'm in a role? And to kind of further those chances so that when I'm ready to move or if I have to move, you know, I'm ahead of the game. I've got five or six warm connections. I can, you know, it's just gonna make that whole process a lot easier.

But as someone who's constantly drowning in life admin, I know that I'm, I'm giving people more work to do alongside their role, but I feel like these are practical things everyone can kind of take away and, and implement and I, and I've seen firsthand affect people's job searches positively.

[00:44:07] Charles: You've, you've maybe already answered this, but I kinda wanna hit it directly is if someone listening right now is feeling stuck or discouraged in their job search, what, what words might you have for them?

[00:44:21] Greg: I'd say give me a call. I never charge to speak to anyone and, and I, I'm always happy to kind of have a one-on-one conversation. I know everyone's different, but I think there's people getting hired consistently, like people are getting, getting roles. It's not all doom and gloom. People are using AI to increase productivity right now, and like who knows what's gonna happen in the future.

But try not to think about that. Control what you can control right now, which are, you know, things like, I could sit here applying for 30 jobs, but it's gonna affect my mental health and, you know, I'm not gonna feel great afterwards. Why don't I go away, do something I'm really passionate about and enjoy and have something to then take out to companies and say that I'm working on this and see what companies are in that particular area.

And a lot of companies, like I just said, are opportunistic in their hiring, and if they see someone who's even kind of doing some cold outreach, maybe reached out to them on LinkedIn or sent an email over and just said, "Hey, love your product. Wonder if you were kind of looking to hire right now?" I think, think outside the box slightly, like don't, don't expect different results from doing the same thing, you know?

And, yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's very encouraging telling people to do, do more, but I think- you've gotta speak to people and, and people will always help you out, and people will have been through the same thing a- as well a lot. Like, if you've had ex-colleagues, I know when, like, there's been layoffs before colleagues have set up a group chat and they all help each other out.

I'm sure that's super useful if, if, you know, if you're in that situation and no one has, go and do it yourself, you know, and then invite everyone, and that can be a big help. And, you know, often companies will take two people who've worked together before because they've worked together before, and it's a, you know, an easy, easy fit, and they're happy to, you know, not pay a recruiter like me a fee for the pleasure.

So they'll, they'll get two for the price of one kind of thing. So I think there's, there's a few, few solutions like that, that I think can help ease the burden a little bit. And yeah, I guess, I guess my advice would be to kind of also talk to people who are in the, the positions that you kind of want to be in.

And, you know, you'll probably find that most people have had a similar stage in their careers where they, you know, were in, in between things and, and got stuck. Um, yeah, I'm not sure how much comfort this is gonna be . Like, I do understand that there's human beings who have bills to pay and, and I, I totally get that.

And honestly, if anyone ever wants to call me and, and, and vent about that, I will happily listen and hopefully you would, you would leave a bit more optimistic. Um, but it's a, it's, it's a, it's a case-by-case basis, isn't it? I think, and, but yeah, hopefully there's a couple of practical things in amongst what I've just said.

[00:46:57] Charles: So how, how should people reach out to you? What works for you?

[00:47:00] Greg: Uh, if I haven't already reached out to you and you're in the Elixir community, I'd be surprised. But, I'm, I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. , I tend to post content about the Elixir market in general and a lot of my roles. My name is just Greg Medland on there, so you can search me on there.

X as well, I try and post and repost news about what is going on in the Elixir community. If you're not on the Elixir Slack, get in there. If you're in the US, there's a remote US Elixir job channel on there. And then my email is just greg@sr2rec.com. And yeah, I try and do a monthly mailing list where I'll advertise, like, "Here's a brief overview of the kind of roles I'm working on," just to touch base with people and, you know, hopefully I don't annoy too many people with that.

It doesn't seem like it, but there's people on there who've kind of just been on there for four or five years and never had an interview with them or, or they've never applied for anything. But probably comforting to see the jobs that are out there, and who knows, one day their dream job might come flying past and they might, you know, might bite on it.

But I'm, I'm a big believer in time in the mar- yeah, time in the market, so I'm not going anywhere and, I like to build connections kind of for the long term. So even if you're not looking or if, if you are, like definitely reach out and if you're not, feel free to reach out too, and always happy to give people kind of a pulse check on, on what's actually going on on my, my side.

[00:48:21] Charles: thank you so much for joining us. Do you have any last-minute thoughts, hot takes, or anything you wanna leave us with?

[00:48:28] Greg: not that I can think of. I think we covered pretty much everything that I wanted to, and hopefully it's helpful. I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing anybody or, you know, that, that, that's the case. I'm definitely not like I, I, I love this community. I also, you know, make my livelihood from it from the last six years.

I'm, I'm very invested in it. Always trying to kind of Deliver back some value where I can. Um, but no, I don't think there's anything else I would, I would add. I think we, we, we, we made some good ground there.

[00:48:59] Charles: Great. Well, our guest has been Greg Medland, the Elixir Fixer. Thanks so much for joining us. It's been a wonderful conversation.

[00:49:08] Greg: Thank you, Charles. 

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